Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

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Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby Hashassin on Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:48 pm

At the fringe of those usually known for selling New Age mumbo-jumbo and doing very nicely out of it too, is Deepak Chopra. You'd think from his books that butter wouldn't melt in his mouth, but take a look at his background and his connections to the TM cult, and the kind of money he makes from his useless treatments.

Here's an excerpt from a great article on what a charlatan he is. http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEdu ... hopra.html

"....Deepak Chopra claims that "by consciously using our awareness, we can influence the way we age biologically. . . . You can tell your body not to age." He has reportedly made millions of dollars marketing such messages along with books, lectures, tapes, and consumables based on a "modern" version of an ancient Indian healing system (ayurvedic medicine). Chopra promises "perfect health" to those who —through ayurvedic methods—can harness their consciousness as a healing force. Chopra claims that "remaining healthy is actually a conscious choice." He states:

If you have happy thoughts, then you make happy molecules. On the other hand, if you have sad thoughts, and angry thoughts, and hostile thoughts, then you make those molecules which may depress the immune system and make you more susceptible to disease.

The rear cover of his book Perfect Health states:

Once you have determined your body type from the detailed quiz inside . . . this book provides you with a personally tailored program of diet, stress reduction, exercises and daily routines. It's based on a 5,000-year-old system of mind/body medicine that has been revived today as Maharishi Ayurveda. Its a total plan for . . . using the power of quantum healing to transcend disease and aging—for achieving Perfect Health.

On a "Donahue" show, Chopra maintained that people who are happy not only have fewer colds but are less likely to get heart disease or cancer. During one segment, Chopra took Phil Donahue's pulse and diagnosed him as "a romantic." The program also featured a testimonial by Marian Thompson, a patient whose metastatic breast cancer had gone into remission with chemotherapy plus ayurvedic treatment. Chopra asserted that his methods had played a major role in the woman's apparent recovery by strengthening her immune system. Ms. Thompson subsequently died of her disease.

Court Case

In July 1995, Californian Jonie Flint filed suit against Chopra, Triguna, The Sharp Institute, and various other individuals and organizations. Flint's husband David, who was suffering from leukemia, had consulted Triguna in April 1993. According to the complaint, Triguna was represented as a licensed health professional (which he is not) and concluded that David's liver function was down and that he had "heat" in his spleen and bone marrow, "wind" in his stomach, and pressure on his nerves. Triguna recommended dietary changes, "purification" treatment, and various herbal products. David then underwent treatment at the Lancaster clinic and purchased and used Maharishi Amrit Kalash and several other products. He also consulted Chopra, who performed pulse diagnosis and provided a mantra for "quantum sound treatment." (This is a technique—also called "primordial sound treatment"—described in one of Chopra's books as "similar to meditation, but . . . prescribed for specific illnesses, including those we consider incurable in the West, such as cancer.") In December 1993, Triguna retested David's pulse and declared that his leukemia was gone. It was not, however, and David died four months later. The suit charged that the $10,000 he spent for ayurvedic services and products was obtained by fraud. Unfortunately, Jonie Flint lacked the resouces to pursue her suit, so the accuracy of her allegations could not be investigated under courtroom conditions.

Whether Chopra practiced medicine after leaving Massachusetts is not clear. In 1995, a reporter who investigated his activities for New York magazine noted that Chopra was not licensed to practice medicine in California. When she asked how he could see patients, a Sharp publicist replied, "He sees patients, but not as a doctor."
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Re: Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby JLeary on Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:42 am

Hi Hashassin, a bit more on Chopra and his devious dealings with the TM group:
http://www.skeptictank.org/gs/sci603.htm

"...The fee to attend one of Chopra's 1-day seminars on "Quantum
Healing" is usually $100. Attendees usually are instructed to make
checks payable to the Maharishi Ayurveda Foundation. Chopra
recently boasted in an interview in The Fairfield Source: "It's
mind-boggling. In San Francisco, I did a seminar that 3000 people
attended. I had to get one of the civic centers. The average
audience now is anywhere from 500 to 1000.... I'm booked right
through 1992 for lectures."

Chopra also gives instructions in two special "health" techniques,
which patients must pay $700 apiece to learn. In the Maharishi
Ayur-Veda Psychophysiological Technique, Chopra instructs patients
to concentrate on the heart while meditating. For the Maharishi
Ayur-Veda Primordial Sound Technique, he provides patients with a
health mantra to repeat during meditation. For each technique, he
provides patients with a private consultation of less than 20
minutes following a general lecture. At one TM gathering in
Washington, DC, in June 1989, Chopra raised more than $25,000 just
teaching the Primordial Sound Technique.

In an undated letter sent to "Friends of Maharishi Ayurveda,"
Chopra, who identified himself as president of the marketing
company, called the concoction of more than 20 herbs, which costs
about $95 for a 1-month supply, "pure knowledge pressed into
material form." He wrote, "Maharishi Amrit Kalash forges the link
between mind and body at the critical junction points everywhere in
the physiology." While admitting that research on its health
benefits is just beginning, Chopra emphasized the need for everyone
to take the cure-all/prevent-all. "It should be placed in every
home as quickly as possible," he urged.

Chopra explains that he did not think he needed to inform JAMA of
his connections to the marketing organizations or of the hundreds
of thousands of dollars he raises through these activities because
he doesn't keep any of it; the funds go to help promote Maharishi
Ayur-Veda, he says. But Chopra's dedication to the Maharishi's
world plan has not gone unrewarded. In 1989, the guru invested
Chopra with the title "Dhanvantari _Lord of Immortality_ of Heaven
on Earth."

Selling Herbs and Pulse Readings

In addition to being a consultant to Maharishi Ayur-Veda in
Prathisthan, India, coauthor Triguna was and/or is director of the
World Center for Maharishi AyurVeda in Maharishi Nagar, India, and
vice chancellor of Maharishi Vedic University in Vlodrop, The
Netherlands -- all of which are involved in the promotion of the
Maharishi's "master plan" for the world. Triguna has appeared at TM
gatherings here and abroad, where he performed thousands of "pulse
diagnoses." Patients in the United States are usually charged $200
for the approximately 3-minute health consultation, which requires
translation since he speaks very little English.

The authors claimed in their JAMA article that this procedure
(which critics such as William Jarvis, PhD, president of the
National Council Against Health Fraud, Loma Linda, Calif, describe
as a variation of palm reading) can diagnose diseases not limited
to the cardiovascular system, including asthma, cancer, and
diabetes. (When asked if he would agree to a test of these claims
made in JAMA using a blinded protocol, Chopra declined on the
grounds that a blinded experiment would "eliminate the most crucial
component of the experiment, which is consciousness.") Many of
these "diagnoses" are followed by a prescription for herbal
remedies available through Triguna's pharmacy in India.

Mastering the 'SIMS Shuffle'

In his book Return of the Rishi (Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Co;
1988:139), Chopra repeats an old Indian saying, "Four things in
life you must cherish: first the guru, then your parents, next your
wife and children, and finally your nation." Former members of the
TM movement say their belief in the Maharishi was so great that
they would have done anything the guru asked.

Ex-members say that the movement widely practices a style of
deception some call the "SIMS shuffle." Curtis Mailloux, a former
member who lives in Fairfax, Va, says the name is derived from the
Student International Meditation Society, one of the Maharishi's
front groups, where many members develop this skill. Mailloux says
he "left the cult" in 1989 after 15 years. As a former TM teacher
and chair of the TM center in Washington, DC, the largest in the
United States, he is one of the highest ranking members to defect.

"I was taught to lie and to get around the pretty rules of the
'unenlightened' in order to get favorable reports into the media,"
says Maillous. "We were taught how to exploit the reporters'
gullibility and fascination with the exotic, especially what comes
from the East. We thought we weren't doing anything wrong, because
we were told it was often necessary to deceive the unenlightened to
advance our guru's plan to save the world...."

John
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Re: Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby SoulSpirit on Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:26 am

How on Earth is this man still respected by anyone with half a brain?

Deepak Chopra
Quantum healing is healing the bodymind from a quantum level. That means from a level which is not manifest at a sensory level. Our bodies ultimately are fields of information, intelligence and energy. Quantum healing involves a shift in the fields of energy information, so as to bring about a correction in an idea that has gone wrong. So quantum healing involves healing one mode of consciousness, mind, to bring about changes in another mode of consciousness, body. --Deepak Chopra

Deepak Chopra is a graduate of the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (1968) and a former leader of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Transcendental Meditation and Ayurvedic medicine programs.

Chopra claims that perfect health is a matter of choice and that he can identify your dosha and its state of balance or imbalance simply by taking your pulse. He claims that allergies are usually caused by poor digestion. He claims you can prevent and reverse cataracts by brushing your teeth, scraping your tongue, spitting into a cup of water, and washing your eyes for a few minutes with this mixture. According to Chopra, "contrary to our traditional notions of aging, we can learn to direct the way our bodies metabolize time" (Wheeler). Chopra also promotes aromatherapy based on the Ayurvedic metaphysical physiology. He sells oils and spices specifically aimed at appeasing Vata, Pitta or Kapha. Actually, what Chopra and other "alternative" healers sell is hope. Chopra gives hope to the dying that they will not die and hope to the living that they can live forever in perfect health. But his hope seems to be a false hope based on an unscientific imagination seeped in mysticism and cheerily dispensed gibberish. Science is unnecessary to test Ayurvedic claims since "the masters of Ayurvedic medicine can determine an herb's medicinal qualities by simply looking at it (Wheeler)."

quantum healing
Dr. Chopra has done more than any other single person to popularize the Maharishi's Ayurvedic medicine in America, including some New Age energy concepts that boldly and falsely assert a connection between quantum physics and consciousness. According to Chopra, "We are each a localized field of energy and information with cybernetic feedback loops interacting within a nonlocal field of energy and information." He claims we can use "quantum healing" to overcome aging. Chopra believes that the mind heals by harmonizing or balancing the "quantum mechanical body" (his term for prana or chi). He says that "simply by localizing your awareness on a source of pain, you can cause healing to begin, for the body naturally sends healing energy wherever attention is drawn." Or, as he also puts it, "If you have happy thoughts, then you make happy molecules." This "quantum mysticism" has no basis in physics or biology and represents a leap of the metaphysical imagination (Stenger). Despite the claims of Chopra and others that the mind can control diseases like cancer, the evidence from scientific studies says otherwise.* On the other hand, there is scientific evidence that optimists live longer than pessimists,* though there is no need to bring in quantum physics to explain why.

The notion that ancient Hindu mysticism is just quantum physics wrapped in metaphysical garb seems to have originated with Fritjof Capra in his book The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism (1975). The book's first two parts are excellent expositions on ancient religions and modern physics. The third part, which tries to connect the two is an abysmal failure and about the purest poppycock this side of Bombay. Nevertheless, it has been this third part which has influenced numerous New Age energy medicine advocates to claim that quantum physics proves the reality of everything from chi and prana to ESP. The idea that there is such a connection is denied by most physicists but books like Capra's and Gary Zukav's The Dancing Wu Li Masters : An Overview of the New Physics (1976) overshadow and are much more popular than more sensible books written by physicists.

Chopra and other defenders of Ayurveda, following Capra and Zukav, are fond of claiming that modern physics has substantially validated ancient Hindu metaphysics. However, physicist Heinz R. Pagels, author of The Cosmic Code: Quantum Physics as the Language of Nature vehemently rejects the notion that there is any significant connection between the discoveries of modern physicists and the metaphysical claims of Ayurveda. "No qualified physicist that I know would claim to find such a connection without knowingly committing fraud," says Dr. Pagels.

The claim that the fields of modern physics have anything to do with the "field of consciousness" is false. The notion that what physicists call "the vacuum state" has anything to do with consciousness is nonsense. The claim that large numbers of people meditating helps reduce crime and war by creating a unified field of consciousness is foolishness of a high order. The presentation of the ideas of modern physics side by side, and apparently supportive of, the ideas of the Maharishi about pure consciousness can only be intended to deceive those who might not know any better.

Reading these materials authorized by the Maharishi causes me distress because I am a man who values the truth. To see the beautiful and profound ideas of modern physics, the labor of generations of scientists, so willfully perverted provokes a feeling of compassion for those who might be taken in by these distortions. I would like to be generous to the Maharishi and his movement because it supports world peace and other high ideals. But none of these ideals could possibly be realized within the framework of a philosophy that so willfully distorts scientific truth (Pagels).

What Chopra is peddling is quantum gibberish.

deception and expanding the market
As would be expected of a guru spreading false hope, Chopra's trustworthiness has been compromised. In 1991, Chopra, when president of the American Association of Ayurvedic Medicine, submitted a report to the Journal of the American Medical Association, along with Hari M. Sharma, MD, professor of pathology at Ohio State University College of Medicine, and Brihaspati Dev Triguna, an Ayurvedic practitioner in New Delhi, India. Chopra, Sharma and Triguna claimed they were disinterested authorities and were not affiliated with any organization that could profit by the publication of their article. But

they were intimately involved with the complex network of organizations that promote and sell the products and services about which they wrote. They misrepresented Maharishi Ayur-Veda as India's ancient system of healing, rather than what it is, a trademark line of "alternative health" products and services marketed since 1985 by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the Hindu swami who founded the Transcendental Meditation (TM) movement (Skolnick).

Chopra spends much of his time writing and lecturing from his base in California where his license to practice medicine is delinquent. He charges $25,000 per lecture performance, where he spouts out a few platitudes and give spiritual advice while warning against the ill effects of materialism. His audiences are apparently not troubled by his living in a $2.5 million house in La Jolla, California, where he parks his green Jaguar, which he can easily afford since he has amassed millions of dollars from the sales of his books, tapes, herbs, appearances, etc. Chopra is much richer and certainly more famous than he ever was as an endocrinologist or as chief of staff at New England Memorial Hospital. He left traditional medicine behind in 1981 when Triguna convinced him that if he didn't make a change he'd get heart disease. Shortly after that he got involved in Transcendental Meditation. In 1984 Chopra met the Maharishi himself and in 1985 Chopra became director of the Maharishi Ayurveda Health Center for Stress Management in Lancaster, Massachusetts. Soon he was an international purveyor of herbs and tablets through Maharishi Ayurvedic products.

Perhaps the greatest deception of Ayurveda is that it cares for the person, not just the body as traditional medicine does. As Chopra puts it, "The first question an Ayurvedic doctor asks is not, 'What disease does my patient have?' but, 'Who is my patient?'"* That may be the question, but it is not a person that the doctor is healing. It is the "quantum body" or the "mind-body"; it is the dosha that needs balancing. Taking a person's pulse and telling them their dosha is unbalanced and they should eat more nuts or less spicy foods, etc., hardly shows concern for the patient as a person. Not using a current photo on your web site or on the jacket of your latest book, which would show how you are aging, is deceptive, especially since you claim to know how to overcome aging.

Self-deception is rampant in the alternative health arena, and Chopra has had his share. In Return of the Rishi he reveals what attracted him to Transcendental Meditation: it helped him overcome his dependence on alcohol, tobacco and coffee. The man was stressed by his job and his lifestyle contributed to that stress. He committed the pragmatic fallacy and became a true believer because he was now happy. Fine, but he since has gone on to try to confirm TM and Ayurveda with quantum physics, pseudoscientific writings and seminars. Even though his patients died while he was claiming he had given them perfect health, he maintained his position. And, when association with TM itself became too stressful and a hindrance to his success, he left.* (Chopra had heard that Bill Moyers wouldn't include him in his PBS series Healing and the Mind because of Chopra's association with a "cult.") He now runs the Chopra Center for Well Being in La Jolla, California, where the mission is "to heal, to love, to transform and to serve." It is a spiritual center, where you can come to "better understand the power of your body, mind and spirit connection to both your inner and outer universe." Because many of those who come to this center are sick, one might call it a faith healing center. There are a few other things one might call it, but they might arouse Chopra's legal staff, who are fond of suing critics of their employer.

Chopra has also admitted in so many words that his Ageless Body, Timeless Mind: The Quantum Alternative to Growing Old plagiarized Professor Robert Sapolsky's contribution to Behavioral Endocrinology. Sapolosky is the author of chapter 10, "Neuroendocrinology of the Stress-Response." He sued Chopra in 1997 for lifting large chunks of his work without proper attribution.

Of course, Chopra has a web site where he will be honored to take your money for one of his many books, tapes, or seminars. We should not be too harsh with our guru, however. It is understandable that he would give up working in medicine in favor of working in religion. In medicine you are surrounded by sick people and constantly reminded of your own mortality. It is difficult work, often very stressful and unrewarding. As Chopra himself put it: "It's frustrating to see patients again and again, and to keep giving them sleeping pills, tranquilizers and antibiotics, for their hypertension or ulcers, when you know you're not getting rid of the problem or disease."* Also, while taking care of others, a physician might fail to take care of himself and come to require sleeping pills, tranquilizers, something to lower the blood pressure and relieve the stress in himself. In religion, on the other hand, you can surround yourself only with sycophants who demand to be deluded and deceived because it makes them feel so healthy and happy. By turning to metaphysics instead of biology, one avoids the risk of being proved wrong. It is much easier to dispense hope based on nothing to miserable people than it is to accept harsh and sometimes brutal reality while maintaining health, optimism and happiness. It is much easier for some people to face life by deceiving themselves into thinking they alone are in charge of what is real and what is true. It is much easier to find confirming evidence for a worldview than it is to do nuts-and-bolts research. It is certainly much more enjoyable to chat with Oprah Winfrey and rub elbows with the rich and famous than to watch another cancer patient die.

Why are Ayurveda and Chopra so popular?
The popularity of Ayurveda and Chopra is a testament to the failure of modern life and modern medicine to satisfy deep longings for simplicity, trust, a clean and wholesome environment, something to counteract the fragmentation, alienation and isolation that many people feel.* Hope is a powerful narcotic. Representing peace and love, caring and respect, as well as esoteric knowledge for the masses, "alternative" medicines will always be popular. And, the fact is that the "alternatives" often put people like Deepak Chopra on a much healthier track than they were on before they got involved with Ayurveda, qigong, Polar Reflex Quantum Energy Dynamics (it may not exist yet, but give it time), etc. Most people would be better off if they followed some of the sensible recommendations of the "alternatives": eat less and don't stuff yourself with fatty and sugary foods with near zero nutritional value, relax, don't smoke or drink or use other drugs to try to make you feel better, don't take things so seriously, treat other people kindly and with respect, spend more time with friends and family building relationships, quit worrying about being so successful and rich or famous, be concerned about what you put into your body and what all of us are putting into our air and water. Philosophy can serve these interests. But most people also want some sort of assurance that this is not all there is, that This is NOT It. They want to believe in immortality and "alternatives" like Ayurveda fulfill this need. The hypocrisy of a materialist advising them that materialism is the root of all evil easily slips by.

But I would ask, if Ayurveda is so wonderful and has been practiced in India for thousands of years, why doesn't Dr. Chopra return to India to live? Likewise, why don't all those who praise the wonders of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) return to China? The answer seems obvious: the wonders of Ayurveda and TCM have been greatly exaggerated. China and India are the two largest countries in the world but there has not been a run of people in the west immigrating to either country. Why? Because the chances of living a healthier, wealthier, richer life are better in America than in either India or China. Neither country is the place anyone would hold up as a paradigm of healthy people. China ranks 81st, India ranks 134th and the USA ranks 24th in overall level of health, according to the World Health Organization. Life expectancy is much greater in North America than in China or India. In 1998, life expectancy in the United States was 72.9 years for men and 83.3 years for women. In India the figures are 62.3 years for men and 63.7 years for women. China's life expectancy in 1998 was 68.3 years for men and 71.1 years for women. Does Deepak Chopra really believe that nutritional deficiency is a bigger problem in North America than in India? Does he really believe that people live longer, happier, healthier lives in India and China than here? If so, why does he stay? Can he say with a straight face: I have come from the promised land to this barren desert and I will stay here to lead you to perfect health in my new Jaguar.

I'll let Dr. Chopra have the last word:

I in fact don't believe in the existence of time. That's one thing I have to tell you, and the other is that I don't take myself or what I am doing seriously.*

For more on the devious My Chopra, see: http://skepdic.com/chopra.html

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Re: Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby JLeary on Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:50 pm

What a poplar thread - and hopefully doing as much as possible to dissuade people from using Ayurvedic 'medicines' and taking up TM. There are people skimming millions off the public with this nonsense.

John
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Re: Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby winkybob on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:40 am

LOL! Good thread:) I have a friend who's been into TM for 20 years and swears by it, but after all this time she doesn't seem to know anything about meditation in any other form and I'm sure she hasn't got much idea at all what she's doing or why. I tried telling her how much more to it thre was than she had been taught, but her faith in the late, fat swindler is so strong she wont hear a word said against him. Any more juicy stuff I can tell her?

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Re: Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby JLeary on Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:02 pm

I'd ask her to read the artilce here on why certain forms of meditation are actually bad for you.

I find it quite humorous that when the Maharishi was dying he shunned Ayurvedic rubbish in favour of western medicine. Very telling:)

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Re: Deepak Chopra, Ayurveda and New Age Medical Cons

Postby JLeary on Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:18 am

This is an old post from Hashassin whch I think many visitors here will want to read. This is the famous, ancient Ayurvedic system of treatment. Quite humorous:)

"....I found this list of medicines, some still touted, and sold, as valid treatments by certain Hindu gurus. After reading number 19, I'm thinking of becoming an alcoholic:)

CAUSES AND TREATMENTS ACCORDING TO AYURVEDA

DIAGNOSIS: Alcoholism, anorexia, nausea, poor digestion, advanced
ascites, edema and indigestion.
TREATMENT: Goat feces prepared by washing with urine. /11

DIAGNOSIS: Constipation.
TREATMENT: Milk mixed with urine. /12

DIAGNOSIS: Improvement of male potency.
TREATMENT: 216 different kinds of enemas, including the testicles of
peacocks, swans and turtles. These, mixed with honey, make a man
superbly potent. If these enemas don't return, follow immediately with
enema of urine. /13

DIAGNOSIS: Insanity, epilepsy, internal hemmorage, piles and defective
breast milk.
TREATMENT: Emesis. /14

DIAGNOSIS: Wound inflammation.
TREATMENT: Bloodletting. /15

DIAGNOSIS: Hemmorage.
TREATMENT: Enema with fresh blood of a rabbit, deer, cock, cat,
buffalo, sheep or goat. /16

DIAGNOSIS: Intra-uterine fetal death.
TREATMENT: Incantation of mantras.

DIAGNOSIS: Natural calamities.
TREATMENT: Use of umbrella, provides strength, protection, covering,
well-being and guards against the sun, wind, dust and rain.

DIAGNOSIS: Alcoholism.
TREATMENT: Massage, hot baths, merciless embracing of women with
warmth of usefulness, loads of hips, thighs, breasts which are warm
and pleasing due to holding up warm beddings and covering with warm
and comfortable inner chambers. /19

DIAGNOSIS: Epilepsy, insanity or seizures.
TREATMENT: Ass urine. /20

DIAGNOSIS: Constipation or retained urine.
TREATMENT: Elephant urine. /21

CAUSE of insanity: Insults to gods. /22

CAUSE of chest pain: Unsuitable food, excessive sexual intercourse,
irregular meals, suppression of urges. /23

CAUSE of impotency: Uncooked food, suspicion, ignorance of the taste
for women, drinking too much water, intercourse with quadripeds,
wounds in penis by sharp instrument, teeth or nails, striking with
wooden stick, excessive use of awny insects (in order to elongate the
organ).

CURES: Castration, local anointment, sprinkling or bloodletting. /25

CAUSE of abcesses: Fatigue, sexual intercourse, giddiness and
yawning.

CAUSE of ammennorhea: Evil spirits or intake of hot food and drinks. /26

CAUSE of threatened abortion: Anger, grief, jealousy, terror, sexual
intercourse, physical exercise or dirty food. /27

CAUSE of intra-uterine fetal death: Excessive use of sharp and hot
things, suppression of urges of wind, urine and feces, use of uneven
bed or seat, looking at ditches and waterfalls. /28

CAUSE of deformed baby: Pushing too soon in labor. /29

Hashassin
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